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J-Mod
01-28-2009, 12:06 PM
OK, I'm seeing a lot of discussion about rabbit and turtle strategies. I thought it would be helpful to start a topic on this to share our ideas. Let me throw out some random questions to get us started:

1) How often do you use it?
Of the 14 powerups you get for 18 holes, I use maybe 7-8 of them on rabbit/turtle drives. If you take out the Par 3's, there's only 14 holes where this tactic even applies off the tee. So, it's safe to say that I use it 50% of the time when I'm staring down a Par 4 or 5.

2) Do you use the rabbit or turtle on shots besides your drive?
I personally do not. If I really need to get around a rock or something, I just go for super sidespin and hope for PI (and curse myself because I probably chose Kratos that round). If you're debating whether to bust out a rabbit or turtle to avoid an obstacle, you're probably screwed as it is. No need to get extra fancy. Just take your par and lick your wounds.

3) Does it add extra distance only if you're on blue flame?
Honestly, until today, I thought that was the case. I thought the extra power boost from rabbit/turtle (the only reason we use it in the first place) only occurred if you were using your driver off the tee in blue flame mode. But, I see that smug and Mace are advising people to use red flame only. Do you still get the same boost in power as a blue flame rabbit/turtle?

4) Is the rabbit better than the turtle (or vice versa)?
Personally, I use them both equally. If I think left to right will be the better approach, I go with a rabbit. Right to left is best - then use a turtle. Doesn't matter - then I stick with the rabbit usually because it's a little easier to time the earlier impact.

OK, that's enough for now. I apologize if a similar thread already exists. I'm kinda new to thie site.

MasonR
01-28-2009, 12:12 PM
You get a boost using red flame as well. The thing about Red flame is you're adding 10yards to your driver, and then the rabbit/turtle boost, instead of 0-25 extra yards, making red flame more predictable. Many par 4s do not require more than the extra 10 yards and then the rabbit/turtle, so there's no reason to take your chances with a Blue flame power.

As for how often, that depends on the course, which holes are driveable, what the wind is doing, what character I'm using etc so it's hard to put a number on it. I've gone whole rounds without using, and I've also probably had rounds where all 14 powers were used off the tee (Crown long novice standard).


I've used rabbit/turtle to get around obstacles before, but nothing stellar. As you said if you're in a position like that you're probably playing for par anyway.

As for which is better, they add the same boost in the same proportions, but considering wind and topography one might be better than the other in a given circumstance.

Roughdawg4
01-28-2009, 12:15 PM
The only time I use blue flame is when you know 10 yards might not be enough. Some really long par 4s that are driveable might require a blue flame and a little luck.

I think the first hole for Highlands, I use the blue flame. Most of the par4's at Okinawa I would use the red flame, because like Mason said, they are driveable.


Other than that, sometimes when I have extra powers and I feel like sailing the ball down the fairway I pick blue to make it interesting :)

Roughdawg4
01-28-2009, 12:18 PM
With the right wind, I think you can power up and get to some of them without wind.

J-Mod
01-28-2009, 12:18 PM
OK, I'm glad I started this thread. I've been using blue flame pretty much exclusively if the 1W is in my hand. I think I'll make the switch to red flame after today. Of course, if it's an easier course or a hole with lots of room for error, I'll probably stick with the blue flame to keep it interesting.

Thanks, guys!

J-Mod
01-28-2009, 12:20 PM
Oh, and one more question.

The power boost from the rabbit or turtle doesn't occur unless you're powered up, right? In other words, if you're playing a no-power cup, it's best to leave the wabbit/turtle at home.

Roughdawg4
01-28-2009, 12:22 PM
yes. If you don't use power, its useless.


Also, you really should try to use red power more. Red Power gives you more stability since it increases 10 yards. Blue flame increases 0-to 25-30 I think. So with blue you always get a random power amount which in turn gives u the random turtle amount.

MasonR
01-28-2009, 12:25 PM
If you have ANY kind of helpful wind, RD, try using a Red Turtle on Highlands #1, it can get there and there's nothing worse than getting a 2y boost from a Blue Flame.

Roughdawg4
01-28-2009, 12:29 PM
Amen to that. That will drive you crazy, heh heh... ::)

the_smug_one
01-28-2009, 12:31 PM
The real key to reaching Highland #1 seems to be getting the right bounce from that downsloping fairway any way. Red flame seems to work best for me when you get that front left pin position. I think it would be tough to get at the back right pin without blue flame though.

MasonR
01-28-2009, 12:52 PM
Ya line is very important. Neutral aim point for me there is that elbow of fairway that juts out at around 290, just to the right of the two fairway bunkers.

The-Dreamcaster
01-28-2009, 01:19 PM
The real key to reaching Highland #1 seems to be getting the right bounce from that downsloping fairway any way. Red flame seems to work best for me when you get that front left pin position. I think it would be tough to get at the back right pin without blue flame though.


Small thing i know for sure, blue flame power shots are 5y-30y. not 0-30y.
Also i find its easier to reach hole 1 highland if you are further right.

MasonR
01-28-2009, 01:25 PM
Dream, you can get a 0-5 yard boost from Blue flame.

The-Dreamcaster
01-28-2009, 01:28 PM
i've never had less than 5y power shot from a blue flame.
With Anya inf/inf i've never had less than 300y drive. a few 300ys but nothing less.
I swear its 5-30y.

MasonR
01-28-2009, 01:29 PM
I swear you're wrong man, others can attest to this, I could even provide proof if necessary.

the_smug_one
01-28-2009, 01:37 PM
I distinctly recall my last 2 and 4 yard blue flame boosts because they were so annoying.

And 25 yards is the max (technically it can be closer to 26, but that requires a long and not-so-interesting explanation) for blue flame.

the_smug_one
01-28-2009, 01:41 PM
I might have spotted the potential cause for confusion here.

To clarify, the 0-25 yard blue flame boost refers to the distance shown on your club at the bottom left hand of the screen, not the actual distance traveled. Actual distance traveled is obviously impacted by a multitude of factors.

The-Dreamcaster
01-28-2009, 01:45 PM
no i know that.
but anya inf/inf is a 295y base for 1 wood and with a full power shot its always above 300y.
i'll have to investigate this, once my dad has finished failing this tourn
also i remembered a training course thing, that a full power turtle/bunny (varying in size) adds anywhere between 7-19ys more distance on a flat surface.

MasonR
01-28-2009, 01:50 PM
Either you're just getting lucky or you're not paying attention during the times when you're getting less than a 5y boost. I can cite plenty of examples when I've got less than a 5y boost and it has cost me dearly (usually short par 4s, one of the reasons I highly recommend red power whenever it's enough.

A full rabbit/turtle will consistently add the same amount of distance to a shot under the same conditions. It's not random it's a set increase. Hit five of the same red shanks in a row at the driving range, barring lie % they'll all end up within half a yard of each other.

The-Dreamcaster
01-28-2009, 01:53 PM
i just asked my dad and he can't honestly say he has seen 1.
from my POV, if you got a 300y base 1w, you can't get less than 305y of a full power shot(Edit: as said by the little box in the bottom left corner). i will find out though.

Roughdawg4
01-28-2009, 01:53 PM
Mason I think he means after the drive. You can get 2 or 4yd power shots, trust me they aren't nice to get :)

MasonR
01-28-2009, 01:59 PM
RD I have no idea what you're trying to say. :o



from my POV, if you got a 300y base 1w, you can't get less than 305y of a full power shot(Edit: as said by the little box in the bottom left corner). i will find out though.

I understand that that's your point, just don't be surprised when you come back with results of 300, 301, 302, 303 and 304.

And don't just hit 5 drives and call it a day if you don't see it. ;)

The-Dreamcaster
01-28-2009, 02:02 PM
*puts down biology work*
BRB, i'll try on training course.

*comes back*
can't, dad playing a tourn >.< i'll try after and ask him to keep and eye on the drives.

MasonR
01-28-2009, 02:03 PM
Smack him around a bit?

The-Dreamcaster
01-28-2009, 02:04 PM
Smack him around a bit?


i maybe 6 ft 4, but my dad is 6ft 5 and a half.. lol and a bit heavier than me.

i'll try it after.

Roughdawg4
01-28-2009, 02:08 PM
Okay his base is 295, maybe he is talking about after the drive to where the ball is carried to. The ball can land say 298 yards out, but it might roll to 320. Maybe he is thinking that way about the 320, rather when the ball hits at 298

MasonR
01-28-2009, 02:10 PM
He edited his post to specify that he's talking about the distance measure in the bottom left of the screen.

Roughdawg4
01-28-2009, 02:17 PM
Okay that makes more sense. Because you can get really bad power from blue flame.

reeja19
01-28-2009, 02:54 PM
I agree with mason and others and can remember on many occasions getting a 2-4 yd boost with the blue power.

Optimus_Prime
01-28-2009, 03:57 PM
Question on "FULL" blue flame power (non-rabbit/turtle): Is it possible to get more than 10yds if you do not have perfect impact?

If the answer is "no," then how can a rabbit or turtle (where PI is impossible) with blue flame power ever be better than red (which gives you those extra base 10yds regardless of PI)?

Now if rabbits/turtles with blue flame are a special exception where PI doesn't matter and you still get the (random) up to 25yd base boost on your normal driver power, then I can see maybe using it.

the_smug_one
01-28-2009, 04:03 PM
Blue flame boost is sadly not related to PI. I had originally suspected (or hoped, at least) that PI with blue flame would guarantee a range of 12.5 - 25 yards, but unfortunately there is no relationship.

Just as likely to get SPI and a 2 yard boost as you are to whiff and come out with the full 25 yards.

MasonR
01-28-2009, 04:08 PM
Yep, smug beat me too it. You can hit any impact and wind up with any kind of boost.

During the first few weeks (or at least up until the US/Euro release) I remember people (<_< shi) telling others that you needed PI to get more than a 10y boost.

Optimus_Prime
01-28-2009, 04:19 PM
So that means blue flame rabbits and turtles can indeed give you the extra 25yd boost to the base club power, but you could also be stuck with a 2-5yd boost instead (aside from the rabbit/turtle boost of course). Yeah, I'd say better to rely on the 10yd red flame base boost unless you got clear sailing and want to show off with the blue. ;D

I'm not a fan of rabbits/turtles, but it sounds like since blue power is indeed completely random, I should be using them (with red power) instead of regular blue power more often.

Seriously, if rabbits/turtles are intentionally designed (and I am NOT arguing against that), then "FULL" blue power is pretty much superfluous. I mean they have the loading screen touting the risk/reward of it. Why not have a screen about turtle/rabbits? I don't get having an "easter egg" and it making another game feature mostly irrelevant. Especially since turtle/rabbits in other instances will usually give you less distance. It's just overly complicated. Poor design, IMHO. Maybe they would have ditched full blue power but it's been a staple of HSG games, so they decided to keep it (that and it's more logical--again in IMHO--than powered rabbits/turtles that are shanks but consistently give you distance boost). Again, I'm not arguing whether it's intentional or whether we should use it. That ship sailed a long time ago. ;)

the_smug_one
01-28-2009, 04:29 PM
I see where you're coming from Optimus, but I think the same logic for blue flame holds regardless of whether you are using rabbit / turtle.

Blue flame will give you, on average, more distance than red flame (whether rabbit / turtle or not) and it may give you LOTS more distance. And while rabbit / turtle will increase your distance, the opportunity for incremental distance from using blue versus red flame remains.

Agreed that it makes less of a case for using blue flame without rabbit / turtle, but there are still holes where some extra yardage might be helpful (and a shortened drive wouldn't necessarily kill you) but the landscape won't allow for the arch of a rabbit / turtle trajectory.

Roughdawg4
01-28-2009, 04:34 PM
I am with you Optimus, we should have more of an interactive training thing. And yes turtle/rabbit should be explained :)

the_smug_one
01-28-2009, 08:57 PM
You know I was certain that I had gotten 302 and 304 yards in a round last night, but when I just now turned on the game I realized my default setup was Anya inf/inf (base 295 power). Grabbed bair / inf with Anya and headed for the range - I now think Dreamcaster is right about the 5 yard blue power floor.

I can't say it definitively, but I just hit a good 50-60 drives with blue flame and didn't have a single one show up below 305 yards (had 6 or 7 right at the 305 mark). Happy for someone to prove otherwise, but I'm inclined to believe blue flame power boost is 5-25 yards, not 0-25.

MasonR
01-28-2009, 10:32 PM
...it was fixed in an update, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Went to the range and came to the same conclusion as smug.

Seriously though...that's crazy. I KNOW I've gotten shorter boosts before. Then again I don't pass up the occasional drink or doober.

Well played, Dream.


*shoots evil stare*


Really, I'm dumbfounded here.

The-Dreamcaster
01-29-2009, 05:15 AM
do i have bragging rights?
It may have been fixed in an update, but i played a tourn last night and that pretty much made me stick to it.
I was playing an Alex Std/Std, which has a base 1w of 256, and didn't get less than 261. still played awfully.

clint_westwood
01-29-2009, 06:29 AM
i have a feeling they may address rabbit/turtle in the future by only giving 75% of the club distance, thus effectively and truly penalising people for hitting outwith the impact zone......

i like rabbit/turtle , people moan about the advantages when they see your drive on the leaderboad but what about the countless times your aiming way right over a bunker , playing for turtle and you hit it straight by pressing too soon......it can win you tours and it can destroy you completely

Roughdawg4
01-29-2009, 06:46 AM
exactly. And you got to hate when that happens, you play for a turtle and you accidently hit it straight. Or hey you forgot the other part, getting a skull.


Both can ruin your round but that comes with the territory of the rabbit/turtle.

The-Dreamcaster
01-29-2009, 06:54 AM
i'm getting better at em, but i've had a few random moments where i hit PI by accident when trying to do a turtle or bunny.
i've yet to skull trying either in a match.

clint_westwood
01-29-2009, 07:03 AM
hell yeah i have had the skull..................now theres something worse than a skull even though its the same.......

skull into rough........no one knows by time you finished hole with bogey or par

skull straight up into the air and yip............back in the leaderboard theres a 2Y drive for all to see ;D

yunatidus4ever
01-29-2009, 09:07 AM
I dont know if I will ever get the turtles down, but I can rabbit okay. I just never use it even if I can. I guess I am a straight player, but that is probably why I am a bottom dweller! ;D

cartman1337
01-29-2009, 09:12 AM
I dont know if I will ever get the turtles down, but I can rabbit okay. I just never use it even if I can. I guess I am a straight player, but that is probably why I am a bottom dweller! ;D


Lol, I'm just the opposite; I can do turtles OK, but I never seem to get the rabbits down... When I try I often end up with a skull shot... Lol. I don't use them too much either, but I've come to a point where I actually DO try for them every now and then...

Roughdawg4
01-29-2009, 09:15 AM
I am with you cartman, I can do turtles really easy, but forget about rabbits.

clint_westwood
01-29-2009, 09:16 AM
dont presume that we have just about every tee shot on crowns with r/t

its not like that, only when really required, we would all much rather save our power ups for approach shots.... and par 5's if needed

as for trying them, the best advice i can give is that if your maybe halfway thru a G0 tour with no chance of winning and a pod is not important then try them then........have a go at turtles/rabbits even if its an expert character

yunatidus4ever
01-29-2009, 09:22 AM
dont presume that we have just about every tee shot on crowns with r/t

its not like that, only when really required, we would all much rather save our power ups for approach shots.... and par 5's if needed

as for trying them, the best advice i can give is that if your maybe halfway thru a G0 tour with no chance of winning and a pod is not important then try them then........have a go at turtles/rabbits even if its an expert character


well i did that for months, and then mason taught me that the rabbit needs to be W I D E to work properly. I had been just rabbiting, did not know there was a precision to it. So it never worked for me, always landed almost where I shot for, and not good let me tell you!

Now that I know it has to be WIDE, it is more of a skill and much more risk (the dreaded skull).

I also just learned on here that it only works on power shots. did not know that either.

See this site has something new to learn everyday!

One day I learned you could smoke a whole cigg without fl ick ing ashes. WOW :o (lol)

clint_westwood
01-29-2009, 09:25 AM
haaa, yeah the rabbit is trickier becuase you are pressing before the impact point and could miss the one entirely

Ragefire18
01-29-2009, 12:07 PM
I've only just started experimenting with these shots and i'm a bit lost reading all the previous posts about the blue/red power. Can someone summarise/simplify it all for me please?

Blue / Red power, whats the difference?
Rabbits have to be hit 'wide' i've just read but what about turtles?

Thanks in advance

Rage.

Roughdawg4
01-29-2009, 12:17 PM
Blue power can vary and red power is fixed.


Turtles are when you hit the impact too late and rabbit is too early. They do the same thing except they will curve in different directions.


Red Power is always a 10yd increase so when you turtle it will do the same thing every time (depends on how much you turtle or rabbit).

Blue power will vary since you power can be anywhere from a 0-25 yard increase. So when you turtle or rabbit with blue power, you really don't know how far the ball will go.

the_smug_one
01-29-2009, 12:32 PM
Blue power is 5 - 25 yards, not 0 - 25 yards. Credit to dreamcaster for that find.

Ragefire18
01-29-2009, 01:06 PM
Ok i've got the red/blue power sussed thanks, now just for the 'wide' bit.

Rabbits only work if you hit it 'wide' ie as close to the edge of a deathshot as possible, is this the same for turtles? ie you have to hit it as late as possible and just before you get a deathshot? Does distance / curvature vary depending on how wide your turtle/rabbit is ?

The-Dreamcaster
01-29-2009, 02:09 PM
the greater the turtle or rabbit it is, the further the sideways effect will take place..
I usually use small turtles and rabbits just for a small distance kick but bigger ones for bigger shots, or ones needing more bend.
Euro Hole 2 is drivable easily, if ya do it right.. nearly aced with a turtle shot once.

Roughdawg4
01-29-2009, 02:53 PM
I don't even think you need to turtle this hole sometimes. Sometimes a nice curved power shot will do the trick with the right wind :)

MasonR
01-29-2009, 02:59 PM
You'd need someone with very high Sidespin (or Kratos's draw) to have a repeatedly drive #2 without a turtle. I'd rather go with the turtle to be honest. 300 base, red power, aim at the tree that's at 290ish on the right, 97% power, release full turtle and you'll be near the bottom of the green with a pretty simple putt regardless of pin.

Almost aced it once with Alex/BigMag, man I was pissed.