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View Full Version : Does one need to master rabbit and turtle to beat the best?



bcus28
11-29-2008, 02:11 PM
I ask because I get my butt kicked all the time in HSG:OB, but was one of the best in HSG:Fore on the PS2 (me playing HSG4 on my PS3 for 8months before OB came out doesn't count folks! That was rough as heck.) So this is kind of painful for me.

I score better using ADV, but I like to use TRAD to be honest.

But lets forget about me for a minute ;) and back to the question at hand.

Is perfect impact not good as an intentional shank? There's something fundamentally wrong if the answer yes. Not a glitch in the game that golfers exploit, but darn near so IMO. And before I get flamed, I am not HATING, I repeat I am not HATING. If it's in the game, it's all good 8)

Does one need to learn rabbit and turtle to win? Or are there golfers out there that don't use it but still are on top; one of the best?

Also, if someone could post here or create a topic on how to perform a rabbit or turtle, I personally would appreciate it.

clint_westwood
11-29-2008, 02:24 PM
well Bgunner is a trad player at level 20

i think there is too much emphasis on people turtle/rabbit shots as if its very very common, bearing in mind most players have 14 power shots and like me will prefer to use them on approach shots.

players may only turtle/rabbit a few times at most and its subject to character, i.e if its crowns gloria then i have no reason to turtle, every par 5 is reachable in 2, but once your way down at say novice characters then in the rain using crowns, unless you go the shotcut you may have to turtle just to reach the main faiway..

remember the risk of getting it wrong, i have went for a few turtles and pressed to soon only to send the ball straight into the rough...

you can win at g0 by not using the turtle/rabbits and as for learning them i suggest going to the training section and aiming way right /left and judging how far you have to aim to get the ball back into the centre line..


the thing is turtle/rabbit have to be in the game , if not then as soon as you miss the impact zone you would skull the shot................maybe just maybe in the next installment they may limit turtle /rabbit to 75% of distance thus making it pointless unless needing a major draw or fade

bcus28
11-29-2008, 02:33 PM
Yep, I forgot about Brad......naaa he's a good bud of mine :D

Thanks for your insight on this matter also, clint. I was under the impression that some folks used it every drive, or even on other shots; I just didn't know.

If it's something that takes practice, and can be a real risk during a round, I'm going to have to pass on trying to learn it; I got my hands full with trying to get good at TRAD, and ADV, and every part of the game for that matter.

p1um5mu991er
11-29-2008, 02:34 PM
And like Mr. Westwood stated, it's part of the game. I used trad shots (obviously) in every HSG before this, but now advanced is available to me. I learned how to use it, and everyone else has an equal opp to learn it too.

And it's not as if attempting turtles/rabbits are risk free or easy to project where the ball will land.
I could do without them but I don't because it's risky and risk is what puts me on the pod every now and then.

<------I mean, look at Mr. T. He takes all the risks. Like a neck injury.

cartman1337
11-29-2008, 02:36 PM
Although I can't be considered to be one of the best at this game, I can play close with the best on a good day, and I never use rabbits and turtles. When having a bad round I've sometimes tried it just to see if I can master it, but mostly have screwed up an already ruined game even more. If I really wanted, or needed, to use it, I'd go to the practice course and learn how to master it, but I can do perfectly well without... Like Clint says, there are only so many times you can really use it in a round, and I depend more on having my power shots available for a finely tuned approach rather than some extra yardage on the tee off shot.

So I'd say no; you don't NEED rabbits and turtles to beat the best, but when they use it and manage to reach the green in 1 rather than two, and gets an eagle as a result, it could certainly help though... But bear in mind the risk is great with those kinds of shots too. I prefer to play it safe... Better safe than sorry, after all. When doing risky shots I tend to end up sorry more often than not, so I've learned to rather ease it up, and let the others take their risks. Sometimes they win because of it, other times they screw up giving you the edge for safeing it instead... And since I don't feel that bad about losing to a great player, I can live with that. :)

Roughdawg4
11-29-2008, 02:43 PM
I don't think it is necessary. At the most it might give you an extra stroke a match. Of course if you risk it and lose it, it might cost you a stroke or more.

SphinxnihpS
11-29-2008, 06:13 PM
Rabbit/Turtle turn Sophie into an expert! (rabbiting is insanity compared to turtling tho)

yasdad
11-29-2008, 06:14 PM
It's interesting to read the posts on this subject. I'm still very new, but have played many different golf games in the past - all using traditional-type play. But as soon as I put the disk in for OOB / EGWT, I used advanced. And I find it much easier to judge impact (usually), but obviously non-full-club shots are much trickier.

Regarding turtles and rabbits: I've seen them used a few times, but not often - probably because I'm not playing at the same level as those that do :D But I have to agree with what has been said before - I'm not going to try and use them when I've got power shots at my disposal. It's far too risky for me :)

Roughdawg4
11-29-2008, 06:19 PM
I don't think on out of bounds it matters too much.


Now Open tee 2 is a different story. When I took a picture of my -15 on Nagawaka front 9 and posted it, that would have not been possible without rabbit/turtle. Unless you are a master of chipping from 50-60+ yards out a few times in a match.

bcus28
11-29-2008, 06:33 PM
Darn roughdawg, -15 on any 9hole is truly amazing, period.

So this is something that I need to learn, of course after my fundamentals are met. Maybe in year or so.

Optimus_Prime
11-29-2008, 11:27 PM
Now Open tee 2 is a different story. When I took a picture of my -15 on Nagawaka front 9 and posted it, that would have not been possible without rabbit/turtle. Unless you are a master of chipping from 50-60+ yards out a few times in a match.


RD, you get extra power consistently with r/t on Open Tee 2? Everytime I've (accidentally) had a rabbit or turtle on the drive I almost always get less power (which should probably be the case for most mis-hits if you think about it). Maybe I haven't really tried it with power mode.

The-Dreamcaster
11-30-2008, 05:40 AM
it has to be a fu ll power shot to harness the full effects of a turtle. I've found bunnys don't go anywhere near as far.
but again, it can be very risky, as its counter-intuitive and usually i end up just hitting a green circle shot rather than a turtle..
i've only recently started trying out full power turtles, but i doubt you need them to be damn good.

Roughdawg4
11-30-2008, 06:00 AM
No it doesnt need to be full power and turtles just go as far as rabbits.


When you use full power, the distance is random. When you use power mode, you will always get the same outcome, but since full power is random the turtle and rabbit will variate.


So you seeing better results with turtle then rabbit is purely a coincidence.

MasonR
11-30-2008, 11:56 AM
Yep, turtle/rabbit yields the same distance increase. Your results are skewed becaues of the random number generator.


My thoughts on this...yes, it's necessary if you want to consistently keep up with the best. Yes, of course anyone could win (scratch that...Crown/Peaks Long tee with novice and rain, you'll get crushed by someone getting those extra yards unless you're hitting perfect aps from 40y further out) without using these shots, but I don't see too many people who don't use it winning that often.

If I know the person I'm playing isn't very skilled at it, I'll be using that to my advantage, and really the last thing you want to do is give a top player another advantage (cocky/arrogant to be sure, but really it's my honest opinion).

For people who hold out on this issue because they don't think it's necessary, that's a luxury afford to people who play OOB/EGWT. If you play on the Minna server the LAST thing you want to do is give those guys another leg up on you. I mean, I don't see many -24 Hlands Novice rounds without the use of rabbit/turtle.

I think when/if G0 tournaments on OOB start being played at the other courses you'll see even more of a need for it. Really Peaks/Crown/Oceania if you avoid the stupidly difficult tournaments you can get around without having to use it, but try that on the others and you'll get killed.

Good example would be Expert at Okinawa, #1 and #3 are drivable 100% of the time with healthy rabbits and turtles. You MIGHT be able to get there without it depending on the wind, but do you really want to be 2 down on your opponent because you didn't eagle the first three holes? I sure as heck wouldn't.

There are several par 4s in this game that can be reached, but pretty much only if you're using rabbit/turtle. #6 Peaks from the back tee is a good example (unless you get 25y boost with a healthy wind behind, don't count on that), and from the front tee you can completely fly the pillars with a good rabbit, making it unnecessary to take the (bigger) risk of using the pillars.

I would say learn it, most people I know who use it say their ability to hit perfect impact got better after learning how to utilitize the intentional shank.


I would say there's a misconception about how much it's used though. Really if I do it more than 4 times in a single game it's either because I'm showing off, not really bothering to care too much about my score, or I'm just having a little fun.

That's another thing. It's FUN as HELL to blast drives 300y with a novice, or 340+ with Experts. Just give it a try and you'll see it can be very helpful.


If you're G1/G2/G3 I wouldn't worry about it too much on OOB, but if you're G0 that means you'll be playing me and people I play against regularly...and I will tell you right now there are some instances that if you don't man up and hit that big tee shot, then you're missing out on an opportunity that me and the others will capitalize on.

As I said, it's not every tee shot, but there are several on each course that can make a hole play at least a half shot or full shot difference. Those add up.

bcus28
11-30-2008, 03:13 PM
Good insight MasonR, thanks for sharing.

KRONZZZ
12-01-2008, 01:14 PM
I never intentionally use em but after reading mase's post i might try to now

rowdybusch
12-01-2008, 01:51 PM
I am not one that uses the rabbit/turtle... I have tried them a couple of times

But I have not been practicing them and I usually fail on my attempt.

After reading mace's post I also will be going into practice mode.

Since I'm new to G0 I need to get up to the same speed as everyone else.

stillsing
12-02-2008, 06:19 PM
Bob stop messin W/ that adv crap!! stick to trad only and i promise you'll be back to your old form soon enuff.

bcus28
12-02-2008, 07:11 PM
Yea thanks ED, but I use both of them, I'm about 50/50, or biswexual ;D

I am starting to think I simply am no good at this game, and it's just the way it is.

BGunner
12-03-2008, 08:29 AM
You won't take it to the next level until you get off the fence and choose a side.

Yourchoices are as follows: the swing type that you have lovingly used for 5 years of friendship, competition, heartbreak, excitement, and all around good times, or,the darkside. Either one will do, but using both won't help you get any better.

clint_westwood
12-03-2008, 08:34 AM
ohhhhhhh.............go darkside go darkside

.........


join me , yer father at the darkside............



oh and bring yer sister!!!!




taxi for clint......

keys,phone,jacket............ok im going!!!

MasonR
12-03-2008, 11:17 AM
Either one will do, but using both won't help you get any better.

I don't see why someone can't choose both. I've played Trad plenty of times and performed well while doing so. You can definitely use both and get better, there should be no question about that.

I think the big problem is that too many Trad players have a chip on their shoulder about it, sneering at adv users like it's our fault Clap Hanz changed up the gameplay. The majority of them see someone using Adv and think "Ugh, sell-out, bet he couldn't break -13 at Hland with Trad, he's reliant on Adv," when it simply isn't true. I've had more than a couple Trad users approach me and say I wouldn't be worth a salt if I had to use Trad, and that usually leads to them not showing their faces back in the lobby after I've trounced them in a gameroom.

Use both if you want, one method will only effect your performance with the other method if you allow it to happen. You can certainly excel with both if you put in the time and effort.

BGunner
12-03-2008, 01:27 PM
I'm not complaining about trad, and high level golfers can use both and do well. However, it's easier to master one or the other if one is specifically focused on initially- my point was don't be a jack of trades and a master of none. Master one style and then move to the other instead of flip flopping every round.

There are obvious nuances to each swing type and switching between the two, especially when it comes to putting, in my experience it would always take a couple of holes or even nine when going to the other style - in a tournament, a couple of lips can cost you a podium.

And I'm well over my saltiness about adv, I've been using it in G0's when nothing else is going on, And Mace, your example about -13 at highland (I'm assuming you were talking about 9 holes?)... I'd love to see you shoot -14 at highland with trad, let me know when you're available - and in no way am I being sarcastic, don't know what it is about Higland front 9 reg, but I've hit a wall, I mean -12 should be assumed with the 2 p5's and p4 #6, but -13 and up escapes me everytime, some cheesey lip or something, so I need to see someone else play it well and see where I can improve on approaches, etc. While we're at it, I'll just watch you play every hole, every course and I'll have a few legal pads for notes...

bcus28
12-03-2008, 01:51 PM
Not to get off topic to much, but yes, my thought on when I started to play was to use both equally and eventually become very good either way. My logic is that in the long run I might have an advantage over other players when the time came for them to switch to the other swing style when needed, as in say a G torny, I would be prepared.

Turns out I am not very good at either, and I have a long ways to go with fundamental stuff, such as knowing where to drive the ball on certain holes lol.
I just haven't played enough to nail down these things.

I see both of your points, MasonR and Bgunner. My problem right now is I love to use TRAD, but I score better with ADV. As of late I've been all TRAD though.

reeja19
12-03-2008, 02:02 PM
Mason,

Let me know when your giving out free lessons, I would like to be there as well ;D

As for the topic, I was initially completely against rabbit/turtle, arguing that it was unfair and blah blah, but then I was messing around offline playing against LJ on highlands, and I noticed on a few holes he hit rabbit tee shots. Whether it was intentional or not, I can't say for sure, but I decided after that I would start using them. They have helped me be more competitive in g0 and have helped with my pi overall, so I would say yes they need to be mastered in order to beat the best.

bcus28
12-03-2008, 02:29 PM
reeja19- so rabbits or turtle are perfect impact shots? I was under the impression they were intentional shanks.

reeja19
12-03-2008, 02:31 PM
No they are not pi shots, but getting the timing down to execute the rabbit/turtle shots has helped me get the timing down better for pi shots.

cartman1337
12-03-2008, 02:37 PM
reeja19- so rabbits or turtle are perfect impact shots? I was under the impression they were intentional shanks.


Exactly since they are intentional shanks you need to time your shots right. If you press to early or too late you might get a "skull" shot or a "good" shot into the rough, OOB or something.

You guys have made good points, and I might just head onto the practice course to learn them soon. :)

bcus28
12-03-2008, 03:19 PM
Ahh, understood now. And yes, I also thank everyone for exposing their secrets :D

Roughdawg4
12-03-2008, 03:47 PM
reeja19- so rabbits or turtle are perfect impact shots? I was under the impression they were intentional shanks.


Exactly since they are intentional shanks you need to time your shots right. If you press to early or too late you might get a "skull" shot or a "good" shot into the rough, OOB or something.

You guys have made good points, and I might just head onto the practice course to learn them soon. :)



Exactly. These shots are extremely risky. I think they have slight upside but incredible downside.


One bad shank can really ruin your round.

bcus28
12-03-2008, 04:04 PM
reeja19- so rabbits or turtle are perfect impact shots? I was under the impression they were intentional shanks.


Exactly since they are intentional shanks you need to time your shots right. If you press to early or too late you might get a "skull" shot or a "good" shot into the rough, OOB or something.

You guys have made good points, and I might just head onto the practice course to learn them soon. :)



Exactly. These shots are extremely risky. I think they have slight upside but incredible downside.


One bad shank can really ruin your round.


So, in a way, maybe they're the equivalent to HSG4's flop shot (not the up down or whatever how people did that, but the spots at the beginning and end of the impact area) except in this game you get additional distance instead of a flop shot (which I miss dearly).

If that is even somewhat close of an accurate analogy, I could see where it is very risky then, but payouts are big, like you mentioned Roughdawg4.

Well, even after all of this talk I still haven't tried it yet, except for one time I accidentally did it, I almost shat my pants thinking it was going off into the yonder, but it went on the fairway.

MasonR
12-03-2008, 04:58 PM
Yeah, rabbits/turtles are replacement shots for skyball and rocketballs in previous games. You need to hit in the red area of the impact zone, outside is a dead shank, inside is "decent" impact, the pink zone, and of course inside that is PI and SPI

And Mace, your example about -13 at highland (I'm assuming you were talking about 9 holes?)... I'd love to see you shoot -14 at highland with trad, let me know when you're available

No, actually I was talking about 18h. I've been confronted on more than one occasion about how wouldn't even be able to keep up with G3 players if I had to use Trad. Last time it happened I shot a -23 at Euro and the kid was still talking smack, about how lucky I was that my shanks were staying in the fairway. People take ANY opportunity to try and knock others down a peg, and this is easier for trad players to do than most others, that's probably why complaints are more often heard from the Trad side of the fence. The fact of the matter is a lot of us have played previous HSG titles, for me, I've played them all. I know how trad works and I don't shy from it, but I'm not going to play it every round or even a fraction of that, I use it when I feel like it. My Trad % for rounds played is still only like 5%, and I don't make excuses for that, but last thing I need is someone who only played HSG4 and thinks he's a "pure" player because he uses Trad telling me that I use an unfair advantage and can't cut it with the "real" players. It's happened...I'd say three times, and it's very annoying. I reached G0 with Trad on another account, even won a few G0 tournaments with it using my main account. I don't see Trad players on the jp circuit complaining after shooting a -24 at Highlands or -18 at Crown about how it could've been lower if they had used Adv.



As for -13, I know I've done that on the front 9 of Hland with Trad, it was actually from the back tee. I had my first Trad deag on the 3rd hole and then played the rest of the 9 in proper form.

You can't just promise to shoot a score that's better than reaching the putting surfaces +1 putt with each hole, so -11 for 9, unless there's a drivable par 4, which makes it -12, and then -13, etc and so on. You just gotta play your shots and if you get lucky, one or more will go in. You don't just go out and shoot those numbers whenever you want, or say "ok lets drop down a perfect nine plus two hole outs" the game doesn't work that way. Anyone who claims otherwise is full of it. Even the crazy jp players must admit that even the simplest of hole outs from more than fringe distance involves <i>some</i> luck.

So no, I can't just go out and promise you a -14. What I <i>can</i> do is go out and know that I'll shoot -12, possibly better, even though that's not what I was going on about in the first place. :P

p1um5mu991er
12-03-2008, 05:14 PM
you tell 'em mace

and why you would even bother to entertain some lobby donkey who's calling you out is beyond me. i wasn't online from the beginning and i was able within a couple of weeks--when i wasn't even a g1--to figure out who i had watch out for in the future.
i have also played all the ps titles but certainly have played this one more than the others combined. i suppose we're all pretty bored to be still on the trad/adv and turtle/rabbit issues, but imo, they're the same. all are part of the game and it's up to each individual how they want to play the game. some top trad guys are just that good, but others may choose to use it because they found advanced swing to be difficult or just not the way they wanted to play the game. whatev, play however you want to play. that's what is actually decent about the game--there's no discovered way to cheat.

as for the -13 deal, sometimes the conditions have to be just right. random opportunities.

the_smug_one
12-03-2008, 06:01 PM
<i>You don't just go out and shoot those numbers whenever you want, or say "ok lets drop down a perfect nine plus two hole outs" the game doesn't work that way.</i>

On Highland, this was pretty much how the game seemed to work for Jess.

MasonR
12-03-2008, 06:28 PM
Eldrick doesn't count, smug. ;)